Winter tire tests 2017-2018 (Behind the Wheel, Autoreview, ADAC, Auto Bild)
Tests of winter and summer tires, which are carried out every year by a number of qualified organizations, will help you avoid getting lost in the abundance of names, marks and brands. This includes:
ADAC Club
ADAC is a serious organization that has represented the interests of German motorists for more than a century. The largest car club in Europe checks car brands for quality and safety, and also regularly tests tires. It is difficult for tire manufacturers to achieve high ratings from ADAC - their severe tests, carried out with true German thoroughness, can leave neither the bottom nor the tire of the tire. The usual results are “satisfactory”, and rarely does a tire receive a “good” verdict.
Magazine "Behind the Wheel"
The oldest Russian magazine dedicated to car enthusiasts and their iron horses. He regularly tests popular and not so popular tires on the post-Soviet market in hot and cold weather, and also conducts interesting studies such as “How temperature affects the length of a car’s braking distance.”
Auto Bild
Car enthusiasts from more than 35 countries around the world read licensed editions of the German magazine Auto Bild. The magazine presents not only motor sports and industry news, but also comparative tests, test drives and, of course, tire testing in various interesting places - for example, AT tires for SUVs in a small Finnish village beyond the Arctic Circle.
Autoreview
The popular Russian (and formerly Soviet) publication "Autoreview" regularly conducts comparative tests of cars at the test site, crash tests using European methods with its own independent rating, and also tests automotive products, ranging from fuel to child car seats. Of course, tires are also on the list.
Nokian tires
Nokian tires also deserve a separate discussion, as they have incredibly high quality workmanship, as well as excellent operating properties. If we talk about this more specifically, the properties of braking and acceleration are most prominent here. This is due to the idealization of tire design, because it is no secret that Nokian tires have a design that is somewhat different from their other European counterparts.
The sidewalls of tires are thinner than the main surface, and the density ratio of the rubber compound in these areas gives cars excellent maneuverability and handling, which is rarely seen in the same concentration when using other car tires.
Separately, it is necessary to say about the grip characteristics of these tires.
For both winter and summer models, these properties are at the highest level, so if your car is equipped with sets of Nokian tires, no matter what time of year - summer or winter - and you are driving on slippery or wet N7A roads at high speed, you You don’t have to worry – you’ll be able to brake in the event of an emergency and maintain a straight trajectory in any case. The braking distance will also be quite short
It is for this reason that the safety class of Nokian tires is the highest.
Rating of winter studded tires 2017-2018
Since fresh tire tests are carried out during the peak season, we took tests of R14, R15, R16, R17 tires conducted last winter as the basis for the rating . When allocating places on the list, we also took into account: the popularity of the model in Russia, ratings, reviews and the cost of tires on the Yandex Market service.
Despite the differences in conditions, tests of the best winter studded tires 2017-2018. carried out using a similar method:
- acceleration and braking dynamics are tested on ice, snow, wet and dry asphalt;
- the time it takes to travel a certain distance on different types of coverage is taken into account;
- an assessment is made of the car's handling level, its smoothness and how noisy the tires are.
Gislaved Nord Frost 200
Average cost - 5,570 rubles.
The rating of winter studded tires for 2017-2018 opens with a new model from the Swedish company Gislaved. The main highlight of the 200th model is the asymmetrical tread pattern and the new ultra-light (less than 1 gram) stud in the shape of a three-rayed star. In general, the tires are quiet, soft, with good directional stability, and grip well on any surface - although on fresh snow and ice it may require adjustments to your driving style. On a slightly icy highway, you should not accelerate more than 100 km on such tires, otherwise the car will drive.
Cordiant Snow Cross
Average price: RUB 5,982.
The very name of the tire says that its developers (Russian company Cordiant) paid special attention to the behavior of the tire on snow. The tread pattern is directional, the center of which is a closed rib, which in theory should significantly reduce the likelihood of hydroplaning in the snow. (It’s interesting, by the way, that this same pattern almost exactly copies the tread of the third place in the rating.) The result is good tires at a budget price that ride really well in the snow. True, asphalt is not as good for her as snow.
Dunlop SP Winter ICE 02
Average price - 8,600 rubles.
A clear improvement over the ICE 01, both in terms of directional stability and reduced noise levels on asphalt. It is difficult to expect the response speed of more expensive tires from mid-price segment tires, but the Dunlop SP Winter ICE 02 delivers 100% of its value. Advantages: high cross-country ability, very strong sidewall, excellent studs, paddles in slush. True, it does not feel very good on asphalt, and is noticeably noisy, and at speeds above 90 km/h it causes increased fuel consumption.
Bridgestone Ice Cruiser 7000
Cost, on average - 6,670 rubles.
Good city tires with the ability to feel comfortable in not too deep snow. It rides well both on asphalt and in dense snow, the noise is within normal limits. It is worth noting that it is best to use this tire in central Russia, where temperatures rarely exceed -15 degrees. But for Siberians with deep snow and prolonged frosts, it is better to think about a more hardy option.
Nokian Nordman 5
Average cost - 2,410 rubles.
The Nordman series from Nokian is a more budget version of the famous Hakkapeliitta. Soft, comfortable, low-noise tires at a reasonable price, which feel good on both dry asphalt and snow. On wet asphalt, based on reviews, it is better not to accelerate over 100 km. A good option for city residents in the “home-work-dacha” mode. Due to the softness of the rubber, it is difficult to drive out of the ruts, and you should be careful with curbs, branches and other sharp objects. But overall an excellent option in terms of price/quality.
Yokohama or Nokian
World famous Nokian wheels are produced in Finland. In our country they are manufactured in Vsevolzhsk. Products are certified according to ISO 9001 standard.
A special feature of Nokian tires is a wear indicator. It allows you to easily measure the tread depth. Finnish tires guarantee powerful grip on any road surface, regardless of its surface. The ride is comfortable both on wet asphalt and on icy roads.
According to experts, the quality of Nokian tires is slightly higher than Yokohama, so if possible, it is better to install Finnish tires.
Which winter tires are best to choose in the end?
So which winter tires are best? The 2021 rating includes both “urban” types of tires and tires designed for more severe weather conditions. For frequent off-road driving, Pirelli Ice Zero, Continental IceContact 2 or Dunlop SP Winter ICE 02 are perfect. For quiet city driving, it is better to choose Bridgestone Ice Cruiser 7000, Nokian Nordman 5 or Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8. Otherwise, when choosing tires, you should first consider temperature conditions, and the surface on which you will have to drive.
Reading time: 7 minutes
For many, Pirelli is not only high-quality tires, but also safe driving on snow or wet asphalt. Every year, greater demands are placed on tires from the manufacturer Pirelli. As a rule, they must have high mileage, quietness, and economical fuel consumption. The wheels of the Italian manufacturer are among the most in demand all over the world. Classic winter tires from Pirelli are designed for true SUV use. Thanks to the wide cylinders, the car is not afraid of any degree of off-road conditions. Products from the global brand Pirelli are very popular, as auto industry leaders took part in their development.
Which tires do car owners choose - Nokian Tires or YOKOHAMA?
In May 2021, according to PartReview, these manufacturers topped the same number of auto ratings:
Nokian Tires is chosen by owners of such cars as: BMW 1er, Honda CR-V, Kia Spectra, Peugeot 307, BMW X1, Ford Fiesta, Ford Mondeo, Ford Transit, Hyundai Accent, Hyundai ix35, Hyundai Tucson, Mitsubishi Pajero Sport, Nissan Almera, Nissan Almera Classic, Renault Fluence, and others.
YOKOHAMA is chosen by owners of such cars as: Hyundai Getz, Mitsubishi Pajero, Nissan X-Trail, Renault Duster, Seat Leon, SsangYong Kyron, GAZ 3102 Volga, Ford Kuga, Honda Fit, Hyundai Matrix, Kia Soul, Kia Sportage, Mitsubishi Lancer , Renault Megane, Toyota Land Cruiser, and others.
Pirelli winter tires
Pirelli has been producing quality products for over a century. The automotive industry is developing at a rapid pace. Engineers regularly introduce innovative technologies to obtain maximum results. The company was founded in 1872. Further production began at the end of the 19th century.
Winter tires from the manufacturer Pirelli
The Pirelli automobile business began to flourish in 1907. The brand's quality products have become famous thanks to famous racers. Fruitful work and improvement of technology helped the company create high quality products. The Stella Bianca series and Cinturato radial tires should be highlighted.
Despite the fact that the models are developed in Italy, in regions where a mild climate prevails and the infrastructure is well established, tires of this brand are able to cope with the most difficult weather conditions in Russia. When developing new products, the manufacturer pays special attention to the composition and method of vulcanization of rubber. Thanks to the unique composition, vehicle handling is improved.
Meet the first studded tires homologated for Lamborghini
The speedometer is well over a hundred, but the 650-horsepower Lamborghini is driving sideways through the snow between the fir trees! The skill of the famous rally driver Stig Blomqvist - plus the grip properties of the world's first studded Pirelli Scorpion Ice Zero 2 tires homologated for supercars.
I remember very well the presentation of the Central European friction tires Pirelli Sottozero of the second series in the Swiss Alps - when the Lamborghini and Porsche, lifted to the Rosa plateau by helicopter (!), barely crawled along the snowy track. It was clear that supercars also needed studs - driver improvement schools alone would make money!
And now it’s finally happened: the line of new studded tires Ice Zero 2 includes tires with the L monogram on the sidewalls. Now Urus owners in Russia will be able to install studs without the risk of voiding the warranty. In general, the size range of new tires starts from 205/55 R16 - you can install these, for example, on the Lada XRAY. They have a new directional tread pattern, and there are not 130 studs, as was the case with the previous first-generation Ice Zero model, but 190. Moreover, the studs themselves are smaller and quieter: the Italians claim that the noise level of the new tires has been reduced from 72 to 70 dB.
How are they different from summer tires?
For example, a car on winter tires moving at a speed of 80 km/h will be able to stop after 70 meters when braking. Under the same conditions, a car on summer tires will need more than 110 meters to come to a complete stop.
Pirelli winter tires have special sipe technology (tread pattern elements), which provide good handling not only on snow/ice, but also on wet winter roads. The tread pattern of summer products is not suitable for contact with snow and ice.
Winter tires from the manufacturer Pirelli have two, three or four wide central grooves that ensure rapid drainage of water and dirt. The winter tread pattern includes many grooves and, accordingly, more ribs, which provide better handling.
Summary
It is difficult to evaluate Pirelli and Nokian tires, especially if you have not used them before. It was difficult for experts to determine the degree of quality differentiation between the best models from Nokian and Pirelli, and yet they made their choice - Italian tires won this dispute. But there is no need to think that Nokian tires are much worse and have less developed functionality - this is not true at all. It’s just that Italian-made tires have slightly better characteristics.
As for the popularity of Nokian tires, this is also quite easy to explain - with the same level of the listed tire models, their price looks somewhat more profitable than the cost of Pirelli tires, and only for this reason, Italian tires are somewhat inferior to Finnish ones in the total number of sets sold.
But if we consider the model ranges as a whole, then Nokian and Pirelli are at the same level. To be more precise, at an equally high level, since in the ranks of the models of these manufacturers there are no such modifications that could be called bad or of poor quality.
In general, the best models in each model range are not too much superior to all other models, which indicates the highest level of manufacturing not only of the leading and best sets of tires, but also of all other modifications. This also indicates that in these companies the production of tires is at the highest level. It should be noted that both companies have a low percentage of defects in the production of car tires - this also speaks of the perfection of the technologies used for the production of car tires.
Characteristics and parameters of studded Pirelli Formula Ice tires
Winter tires from the Formula Ice series show excellent performance on snow surfaces with a tread depth of 4 mm. According to the law, the minimum permissible tread depth for winter products is 1.6 mm.
To ensure excellent performance and safety, the same products must be used. You should always install winter designs from the same brand. Products must have the same technical characteristics. In winter, you should avoid sudden braking, which can lead to loss of traction.
Characteristics and parameters of Pirelli
Particular attention should be paid to the speed limits indicated on the outside of the product. The auto test showed that Pirelli Winter Ice Zero is a development that indicates a lower speed than is specified by law.
Some products are equipped with an asymmetric profile. It should be noted that the tread has three stripes. They are divided into internal, central, external. Each tread strip can be distinguished by its individual characteristics.
Tires 205/55/16 – which is better Hakka8 or Pirelli? Strictly spikes
Which winter tires are better to choose: Hakka8 or Pirelli? What is the fundamental difference between them (other than price)? Are Pirelli Formula Ice and Pirelli Ice Zero different tires or the same thing?
Anything else worth watching? Michelin, Bridgestone, Yokohama?
Jetta car, tires 205/55/16.
It is important to keep the road well and brake clearly. Previously, I only traveled on Hakke, but now I would like to find a cheaper one if possible.
Pirelli Ice Zero is very boomy. It is not the noise of the thorns, but the hum of the tread. It does not go away and appears at speeds of 60 km/h. The still hard alloy of the spike breaks off at the edges. In general, I do not recommend buying these tires.
Are Formula Ice and Ice Zero different tires? I can't figure it out exactly. In online stores they have different prices, but upon personal contact, some sellers say that they are the same.
if the first requirement is grip, then I would take a chapelite, and the studs fit well (I have seen almost bald chapelites with most of the studs intact), but they make a lot of noise. If you want less noisy ones, take softer tires, such as Gislaved or Michelin, the grip is good, they make much less noise, but they lose their thorns faster
Different tires, the formula is a brand from Pirelli, like Nordman from Nokia.
Which winter tires are better to choose: Hakka8 or Pirelli? What is the fundamental difference between them (other than price)? Are Pirelli Formula Ice and Pirelli Ice Zero different tires or the same thing?
Anything else worth watching? Michelin, Bridgestone, Yokohama?
Jetta car, tires 205/55/16.
It is important to keep the road well and brake clearly. Previously, I only traveled on Hakke, but now I would like to find a cheaper one if possible.
What is the Continental not on the list? ContiIce Contact in any region of the Russian Federation will be normal. Hakka 8 easily parted with the spikes.
The breeches are so-so, it’s better not to consider Yoku at all, it’s better to have Nordman, or Gislaved 200 (not just the hundredth, it’s sad there). True, there are few tests and reviews at all for two hundred, this winter we will put a tseshka on the rear of the Merc in the same size, or 215.
200ka is a good tire, Kontik 2 also performs well in tests. It is important to decide what is important during operation. A friend of mine drove a Matador MP55 made in Omsk for almost 10 winters until I gave him a Hakka7 set for his anniversary. He quickly got used to the good things))))
Worth 2 seasons of Eka Ig55 for my wife’s car, I just changed my shoes since the summer. Absolutely all 100% of the studs are in place, there will be a third season, I like how it behaves in winter, although I am not an expert in studs, since my car does not have studs.
Back in 2004, I thought that the UG500 was an excellent cutting machine with an anchor tenon landing. At 11-12, having bought Conti Ice, I realized what a good tire is. I should have taken Hakku then.
I got Yoka from a car, sold it and bought a Kontik.. It turned out that with Yoka it’s like a summer winter, scary..
Isn't mp55 summer? and if comfort is needed, I personally have not seen studs quieter than Michelin
spiked breeches are not much better
55s are Omsk, not summer))) 10,11,12,31 are definitely summer
Hakka and Kontiki are the best IMHO, but not budget friendly. It’s true that I rode on winter tires for a long time and frictionless, I don’t like ice, they don’t praise the yoku, but according to the latest tests, the IG65 tire doesn’t seem to be bad. Goodyear grip when braking is super, I really liked it. I skated with breeches on everything - I decided for myself that winter was anything but breeches. I took the yoku to try for my wife, it’s sweet for the price, good according to the tests, we’ll see in the winter. According to personal feelings, the Hakka are the best, I always thought the Hakka were show-offs until I installed the first friction kit on the Hakka R, I fell in love with the tires, the studs are just a waste of time. In short, the best is the enemy of the good, if money allows, take the Hakka. If not, well then something more budget-friendly, but in this case there is no way to offer grandees like Conti, Michelin, etc. The price tag, plus or minus a few kopecks, is the same. Subjectively, but don’t even think about taking breeches - the grip is complete, no brakes, no directional stability.
Last edited by Hasan777; 10/25/2017 at 06:04.
I didn’t like the summer Breeches either, the standard model on the Camry is fresh, poor grip on wet asphalt. It’s strange, like Conti makes no sense, but what about dry and wet asphalt, lateral grip, all these indicators on the Hakka before model 8 were terrible, and even then they were still worse. On ice the difference is not huge, well, in the snow they will lose a little, but how often do we bury ourselves in it? I'm not talking about the loss of thorns. No matter how many tires I came across from Yoki, they were always very unimportant, and without experience in the production of good winter studded tires, IMHO it is impossible to make a high-quality product practically from scratch.
Source: forums.drom.ru
Best before date
Russian legislation establishes a tire warranty period of up to 5 years from the date of manufacture of the structure.
Service life (service life) is the period during which the manufacturer undertakes to ensure the possibility of using the product for its intended purpose and bear responsibility for significant deficiencies that arise through his fault.
There are no specific technical recommendations that would require that a tire be replaced when it reaches a certain age, for example, after the warranty period has expired.
Product warranty period
Shelf life is the period during which the product, subject to established storage conditions, retains all its properties. If the shelf life has expired, this does not mean that the product is unfit for consumption. However, its consumer characteristics may be reduced.
There are also no statutory shelf life periods for products, but a tire that has been properly stored in storage for up to 5 years is considered to meet the definition of a new tire. Products undergo aging based on physical and chemical processes. This also applies to unused or underutilized developments.
East
Fresh model Bridgestone Blizzak Spike‑02
— the most expensive in the eastern team (price 3,650 rubles), but cheaper than the European giants.
Another new product, Hankook Winter i*Pike RS 2
, - a tire with an increased number of studs and an updated tread pattern. It replaces the Winter i*Pike RS model. This year it will appear in Russia in 57 sizes - from 155/65R 13 to 255/40 R19.
Toyo Observe Ice-Freezer tire
replaced the Observe G3‑Ice model and will be available on the market this fall, so far in 16 sizes - from 14 to 19 inches. The rubber mixture includes silicon dioxide, which provides elasticity in cold weather, and microparticles of walnut shells for additional grip on ice.
Another model with Japanese roots, now produced in Russia, is the Firestone Ice Cruiser 7
. Previously, this tire carried the index 7000 and belonged to the Bridgestone brand line.
The next player from Japan is Nitto Therma Spike
, a “relative” of the Toyo brand. These tires take part in our tests for the second time and are characterized as inexpensive, with modest characteristics.
New GT Radial IcePro 3
, which replaces the GT Radial Champiro IcePro, was developed in its own research and development center in Hannover. And the GT Radial brand is owned by the growing international company Giti, based in Singapore. The new product is available in 22 sizes - from 175/65 R14 to 225/60 R17. The tires participating in the test are made in China.
Which car tires to choose for the winter: Pirelli Winter Ice Zero or Nokian Nordman 7
In order not to make a mistake in choosing winter tires, you should consider the conditions in which the car will be used. Taking into account the effectiveness of the structures in various weather conditions, as well as their suitability for driving on different types of road surfaces, tires for the winter period are conventionally divided into: studded, “European”, “Scandinavian” products.
The “European” type tire is designed for travel on both snow and asphalt. It is worth noting that any car equipped with “European” tires behaves quite confidently on wet roads.
Choosing between Pirelli Winter and Ice Zero Nokian Nordman 7
“Scandinavian” Pirelli Ice Zero tires will be most effective on slippery roads with snowy areas.
Nokian Nordman 7 tires are ideal for premium cars and SUVs. The latest developments of the Italian brand work silently. New and reliable products ensure safe control in extreme conditions. By installing Nokian Nordman 7 tires on your own car, you can ensure first-class comfort, stable handling, as well as extreme grip on ice or wet asphalt. The warranty is valid for one year after purchasing the products.
Inappropriate parameters lead to changes in driving dynamics. The handling of Nokian Nordman 7 winter tires is impaired due to an increase in seat diameters and load indices. Attractive characteristics of Nordman 7:
- fuel efficiency;
- uniform tread wear;
- reduced noise during vibrations;
- thorough adhesion of the contact patch.
In conclusion, it should be noted that winter tires from different manufacturers differ only in price category. Their characteristics are almost the same.
I’ve been driving my new Pirelli Winter Ice Zero for several months now, I think my impressions are more or less settled, all the nuances have become clearer, I can write a review. I will make some comparisons with my previous tires - Nokian Hakkapelita 7, which I drove for 3 winters before. Looking ahead, for the impatient, I will say that the tires are 100% worth their price. But, of course, it doesn’t live up to khaki, but taking into account the fact that it costs 50% less, you can forgive it for that.
Well, now in more detail, point by point.
1) Softness.
Pirelli have finally cured their disease of dull winter tires, this tire is not like that at all, it is soft even in severe frost, just like the Hakka. But Hakkapelita seems a little stronger to me, since I have never made it, even though I flew into holes. But he hit this one once, flying into a sharp hole even before the snow lay down. It pierced the side, from the inside, so I had to cook it. But fortunately she survived it and continues skating without problems. But don’t worry too much about it; it seems to me that the pit there really was Podlyansky. In general, here the rating is 5 points for both. But khaki has a good bonus in this regard - it is a guarantee against hernias, etc. It’s probably not for nothing that the manufacturer is so confident in it.
Comparison of Yokohama tires with Dunlop, Pirelli, Hankuk, Nokian
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Every motorist is faced with the problem of choosing high-quality tires for his car. Today this has become much more difficult. The car market offers a huge range of tires from various manufacturers. And most of them are of very high quality.
How to choose tires wisely
To make the right choice, you need to consider several important points. First of all, this concerns cost. Sometimes the price of tires is quite reasonable, and the quality corresponds to wheels produced by a well-known manufacturer. That is, you can always choose a budget option.
Of course, the service life of expensive tires varies. They have a wide tread that quickly drains water. In addition, they reduce braking distances on icy roads.
When choosing tires, regardless of their price, you need to focus on important nuances:
- Tires must match the dimensions of the vehicle. The appropriate size can be found in its technical manual.
- Maximum speed.
- Operating conditions and load.
- Tire category.
- Seasonality.
- Possibility of braking on icy surfaces.
It is very important that the speed and maximum load match the tire dimensions. Failure to comply may result in suspension failure.
Yokohama or Dunlop
The cost of these tires is approximately the same. However, before making a choice, it is worth getting acquainted with their technical characteristics. Find out what advantages each model has.
Yokohama
For production, the manufacturer uses computer technology. Therefore, the tire fully meets international standards.
New tires reduce braking distance.
Winter wheels are equipped with metal studs of an original design. They provide reliable grip on icy roads. Skidding of the car is completely eliminated. A studded tire increases the safety of the trip and makes it more comfortable.
Especially for the summer season, wheels are made of rubber, which does not begin to melt at high temperatures.
A universal (all-season) tire is made of two-layer rubber. It can remain elastic in severe frosts and not melt in extreme heat.
There are models that have special semicircular holes on the tread. Due to them, tires repel snow, dirt and water, and quickly clean themselves. Longitudinal grooves prevent wheel slippage, maintaining lateral stability of the machine.
The rubber is designed for long-term use. Sometimes this period exceeds 10 years.
Each wheel undergoes a thorough check. Samples with the slightest deviation from the norm are rejected. Therefore, the company guarantees 100% quality of its products.
Dunlop
The wheels have a wide tread. The design of the drawing and its calculation were performed using computer graphics. The rubber adheres tightly to the road surface, ensuring complete safety of the trip.
The tread has a non-directional symmetrical pattern. The car never skids on wet or very slippery roads.
When driving over potholes and potholes, no shocks are felt inside the car.
Tires provide minimal braking distance
This is very important for driving on city streets
Winter models are equipped with steel studs that provide excellent traction. On such tires the car never skids.
Summer tires are made of special rubber. It prevents melting at high temperatures.
All-season ones are made of several layers. As a result, the wheels do not freeze in severe frosts and do not melt in hot weather.
Dunlop can be used for a long time. If used correctly, they will last more than 10 years.
The characteristics of both tires are almost the same. Motorists speak only positively about them. At a low cost, each model has improved quality characteristics.
According to car owners, Yokohama is more suitable for slippery roads. If you install Dunlop, you should use all-season options. They show excellent results in winter cold and summer heat.
Of course, when choosing a tire, you also need to take into account its parameters and characteristics. Wheels with different parameters often behave differently.
Pirelli or Nokian winter which is better
The tires produced in Voronezh are flavored with powerful studs - and work great on ice during acceleration and braking. But in turns there are sharp slips, so without a stabilization system you will have to be on your guard. But they have a good balance of grip properties on slippery roads and on asphalt, and therefore they can be safely recommended for winter use in large cities. If you do not place increased demands on acoustic comfort.
The changing conditions were taken into account and the results were adjusted, but if all the tests were carried out in light frost, the friction tires would have fallen to the bottom of the protocols.
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